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Page 1, Page 2 Content ---- ---- ---- I'm sad to see you go down the same path of baseless supposition that others have. Oh well. I suppose the other mistakes Carbine have made (like the female voice for our male vendor in Illium) were part of the plot and not just the typical screw-ups we see from this company? It's weird to me that sometimes these mistakes are ineptitude, and sometimes they're part of a conniving scheme, with little attempt to measure out the likeliness or gains of the latter. Olivar, I think this is a misleading post. Your first point is so subjective... people only do dungeons for the sake of the dungeon? Are you joke? Plenty of people do dungeons ~only~ for the rewards, I believe at one point (if not currently) the attunement, and in my personal case and all those who were with me, we actually did it exclusively for the NPC decor drops from the chest at the end. Going into your second point, no, we don't need to pay to see ANY rewards. We need to pay to see the specific rewards from the Lopp boxes ~if we don't have or want to spend omnibits, or already have keys lying around (I had 6 total)~. The essential WB rewards are still a part of this event because they're greatly accelerated by the PAP change. Writing that off without an explanation is unfair. And how does the event "interfere" with world bosses? I can't comprehend this. The large raids I was with yesterday didn't seem to be suffering from interference of any kind. Jeff, these are the quotes I was referring to when I spoke of 'individual' respect, and where this line of discussion derives from. You weren't talking about how they treat customers, you were talking quite specifically about how much money you spent and how as a consequence you felt manipulated: "they do not respect my support of the game". My point was that mostly all of us are in the same boat and it doesn't matter what your specific circumstances are as a paying customer, because they're not looking at specific circumstances. though I understand why those circumstances would be important to you, as opposed to important to Carbine/their marketers. Edited January 8, 2016 by EsperXIV | |} ---- ---- ---- I assume that my situation is similar to many, and thus I think it's fair to extrapolate it to a broader subset of the Wildstar population. I never expected Carbine to look at my specific circumstances. But it's reasonable that they might look at those people who have supported the game and continue to and thinking that many of them would not like to feel like Carbine is trying to manipulate them into spending more money just to get the rewards for playing the game. | |} ---- It has NOT been corrected. I just checked the site. It still has the same info in it, the coordinates have been corrected but the misleading and missing information is still persistent. How can they not fix that?! I mean, I get they can't fix the problem at this stage in the game considering the length of the event. I do hope that they've figured things out a bit more on this one for future events. | |} ---- | |} ---- ---- ---- That's a good question I was thinking about yesterday. The only answer I could come up with is that the game would feel (and maybe legally be treated as) a store instead of an immersive fun environment. Maybe by introducing RNG they think it's a more game-like experience. Or maybe statistically it produces more money. But there's definitely a problem when you're trying to make things exciting and wind up creating an angry mob. What I want to know more than anything is who develops F2P systems. Are they gamers? Are they game devs? Are they the people who worked on the game in any capacity? Economics people? Or simply an extension of marketing? Are they suits? F2P has been around and controversial for a long time now... someone do an expose... (after writing that I Googled F2P film and only found a documentary that seems to focus on MOBAs and has nothing to do with cash shop models.. so someone get in there and dig up dirt :P ) Edited January 9, 2016 by EsperXIV | |} ---- I got one of the dyes. It's not BoP. | |} ---- ---- This is what I see as the biggest issue with the event. If keys dropped from bosses, I could sort of understand (but still wouldn't like) junk being in these boxes. You'd be able to obtain more keys which meant more spins at the RNG wheel. Requiring people to pay to open the boxes and giving them junk is really inexcusable, and I don't see how that does anything but discourage people from buying more keys. The first box I opened I got a common dye. That didn't exactly send me running back to the store to spend a dollar for another key. Considering I generally have bad luck at these things, it made me instead feel like I'd just be throwing money into a black hole. And, the example you give shows how this could've been done much better. They've already done that with Madame Faye. This event is the antithesis of that. With Madame Faye, you know even if you have a streak of bad luck, each Fortune Coin you spend puts you a little closer to being guaranteed something good. That is something that encourages you to take more chances since, even if you end up with a bunch of garbage, you know you'll eventually get something worth the investment. With this event, you could literally open hundreds of boxes and never get anything except crap. As far as design principles go, this event feels like a huge step backwards in terms of how to get people to spend money. I think this is a great idea. There has been a lot of discussion in the past of the worth of Signature and how it compares to other games. A lot of people expected a stipend to be part of this, but something like what you said could work just as well. Some sort of stipend (NCoin or Omnibits) would obviously be better and more comparable to what other MMOs offer, but something like a few free boxes with events like this would go a long way towards making it feel like subscribers are appreciated. That's really what I thought their whole approach to the cash shop was: Pay for the convenience. Most of the events up until this point have worked that way. Winterfest, for example, allowed you to earn currency to buy decor and costumes, or you could bypass all of that and spend NCoin. If this event did drop keys, it would've worked similarly. Either farm World Bosses, hoping to get a key, or buy keys in the shop to bypass that. Considering the wording of the initial announcement and how backwards this event has ended up being, it really makes me think keys were originally intended to drop, but at the last minute someone decided that was a bad idea. So, instead we've gotten an event that feels very slapdash and not well-thought out. Edited January 9, 2016 by Cantatus | |} ---- ---- Because they make more money off all the idiots buying gambling-boxes. | |} ---- Shame that my first post here had to be about this... again.... *Sinking feeling....* Having recently been through all this with another small, niche MMO (The Secret World), I expect that the reasons are fairly similar here. Selling skins directly in the cash shop is only profitable if a lot of folks buy them; so it works for the likes of GW2 but for the smaller MMOs each skin can actually be a loss (if the Devs are to be believed). But put that same skin, with a bunch of other stuff, in a gambling bag/box and it'll be a spectacular financial success. This is because you're also adding the gambling 'thrill' and limited time availability ('must buy now!!!') and exclusivity (for the lucky few who win the premium item). Putting the item in the store as well hurts the latter above factors (especially the last one), so fewer bags/boxes are sold, for overall less financial gain. Especially when compounded by the first point (in smaller games, not enough folks buy the skins directly). All of the folks who previously bought everything to show their support (but won't buy gambling bags/boxes), all of the cosmetics junky whales who previously bought everything (but won't buy gambling bags/boxes), all of the outraged folks who find this disgustingly tacky and close their wallets forever or leave, all put together... don't appear to come close to the silent mass who just keep buyin' them bags/boxes. Some MMO companies will use the above method when they don't financially need to (greed) but it may well be that for smaller companies it is a financial necessity. I've tried to stick to the dry facts here, having read the thread which contains a fair few 'What's going on here?!' questions. Probably something like this, I expect. Not gone into I feel about this, since I don't want to be rude to the hosts as a new guest... I'm sure that folks can read between the lines.... Cheers. | |} ---- I don't doubt that RNG boxes are more profitable than selling skins directly in the store. But selling skins directly can incur a loss? Often these are just reskins or reconfigs of existing art assets anyway, so it's hard to imagine how this could incur a loss. Do they really sell that few? Do you have any reference links, would like to read more. | |} ---- ---- Yes, it's definitely a game-like experience with an immersive fun environment to have random things magically appearing from little boxes, including pets that somehow don't die from lack of oxygen, precious Eldan artefacts, ships, Strain-infected and somehow friendly creatures... at a completely random rate. At least, with the store, you can make up a somewhat believable story about that (like different shops/pet shops/ship hangars with experienced mechanics/pet handlers, having contacts with various governments/scientists to allow them to sell this kind of things to experienced players, etc.) In STO, in those boxes, you can even get ships from enemy factions, even ships that wouldn't even possibly be able to be flown by regular humanoids, like the Undine ships requiring telepathic abilities, Jem'Hadar ships that require a Cardassian to view outside without having a colossal headache (and also lack medical and food departments) or the Iconian ships using a tech that taps into a portal network controlled by the big bads. TL, DR: Lockboxes are definitely not immersive! And absolutely not fun! Edited January 9, 2016 by Shakyntani | |} ---- ---- This has been an extremely bitterly discussed topic on the TSW forums, over this last year; a few of those threads contained links to the Devs stating the above (without much more detail or info than that) - though I'd have a job to find them now, and I prefer to avoid that forum like the plague. But I believe in backing up my statements so I'll do that thankless digging, for zero additional information content, if you really want me to. :D I imagine that it's probably true given a bunch of evidence: Even when the company was so financially hard up that they were requesting that they be bought by/merged with any other company that would pay their debt, they didn't make any new skins to sell in the cash shop (except for only some new sprint skins). With their Christmas 'event' (ie new gambling bag), a Dev stated that though it was beyond doubt that selling skins in the store was a financial failure, they would add one (in different colours) just to test if this was still the case... naturally they chose an absolutely awful skin that wouldn't sell well... which will just happen to prove that they're correct and all the staunch 'just sell stuff in the store!' folks are wrong.... Of course, the elephant in the room is that though their creative team is fantastic, the company's management couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery, so that might be the main reason why the skins didn't make as much profit as they could/should have... since I agree that it is difficult to believe. | |} ---- The idea that the gaming industry should shrink back to the good ol' days is a nice daydream but in the end those days are over. As computers have increased in computational power and complexity, our expectations of what a game engine should provide at a minimum have also increased--a little team of indie developers is not going to be able to meet those demands any more than a little team of indie movie-makers can put together a special-effects laden blockbuster. A more realistic solution is that as shareholders rise in influence and start demanding the most profit by sinking to the most exploitative sales tactics, external laws and regulations become more important to counterbalance that pressure and require them to treat consumers fairly. Las Vegas doesn't get to put up slot machines without posting the odds, why should video game companies get to do so when their luckyboxes can be accessed with cash? | |} ---- ---- This was my impression of that MMO too - I played for a few months at original launch and looked in again when it went B2P. But it seemed to be rather a shambles outside of the story content (which was fantastic) and they didn't seem to have much clue about how to run a cash shop. Sad to hear that rather than improving what they were offering in the cash shop, they took the RNG box route. Doesn't surprise me though, whole industry is headed that way. No need to dig out links, I can log into the forums there and search for more info. Well I think there's room in the marketplace for some indie MMOs to offer a genuine alternative to the current F2P madness. But anyone playing an indie title, or backing them via Kickstarter etc, needs to rein in their expectations and be realistic. It's better that indie titles focus on what they can do and then do it well, rather than get too ambitious. Indie movie makers have already proved it's possible actually. For sure you won't get a blockbuster or CGI masterpiece, but that's not the only way to tell a story, and it doesn't have to be amateur. However, If an indie developer is promising too much or engaging in hype, walk away. Thankfully there's some interesting projects currently under development which seem to be realistic and honest about what can be achieved, so fingers crossed. Totally agree about the regulation issue, it has to happen and I'm pretty sure it will happen given the huge amounts of consumers involved. but the wheels of legislation and consumer protection turn very slowly and are playing catch up. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- I know someone who got 2 Lopp pets and the dye is also selling on the CX. Also see people around with the Veggie Launcher toy. | |} ---- ---- what about now? still too early for them to reply?...... | |} ---- More suited is going to be: Are they still allowed to reply.... | |} ---- @ 1:07am PST on a Monday morning? Just a bit, yeah. I've heard that there may have been a comment on Friday's Livestream but as I work for a living I can't watch them. Not that I would if I were home since I'd rather be playing the game itself. | |} ---- ---- I got the dye. It cost me 12 plat on the Commodities exchange. ;) Sounds like it's probably cheaper to do it that way than to keep buying lockbox keys until you RNG it out. | |} ---- ---- Currently on Entity AH: 4 Lopp Hunters, 5 Grinder (Lopp). Not sure where the Veggie Launcher Toy would get sold. And 2,517 Shiny Tokens on the CX Edited January 11, 2016 by beattlebilly | |} ---- I'd really be interested in how many coins were dropped vs how many coins were turned in for loppboxes. My PC is housing a temporal rift that turns it into a C64 whenever a WB group is anywhere in the vicinity so all I did for the event was normal questing with a friend, we didn't do anything fancy like killing primes and still got 11 coin drops between the two of us - which was better than I expected - but all of those coins have been destroyed because neither of us was going to buy keys. | |} ---- Can I come play Maniac Mansion? | |} ---- Sure but you'll have to convince the WB train to stick around or try to follow them at 1 frame per minute, it turns back into a pumpkin mid-class PC after they leave :lol: | |} ----